| If you swear it will sell more records ! |
| A.Yes
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
| B.No
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60% |
[ 18 ] |
| C.Know how to do it in a cool way
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30% |
[ 9 ] |
| D.This topic is really a ____ |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
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GregK
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 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Great song.. and I CLEARLY understand what you are saying.. at least it was replaced by something that MADE SOME SORT OF SENSE! A fine example of what I mean would be in Tom Petty's "Last dance with Mary Jane" which yes..we all know that the song was about the guys smoking pot and they don't anymore- but the line "Let's roll another joint" -well..they couldn't have THAT on the radio!! So it was mumbled to the point of utter confusion-the result sounds like..ahem..let me attempt this..
"ROLL YO MUTHA BOINK" -only mumbled..so rooyomuwwthaboooiinnk..
(actually- I may use that line in a song somewhere- maybe if I gargle the lyrics  )
Another fine example would be in the John Mellencamp song "Play guitar"- the original line was "cut out all that mach sh*t and learn how to play guitar" -the RADIO version became the swear word kinda REVERSED..so it was "Cut out all that macho tish and learn how to play guitar" - what the HELL is "Tish" ?? -Let's face it..if we are trying to protect people from certain words- that's bullsh*t (pun intended) people or kids or whatever- they already KNOW the words- they heard them on the bus (or maybe- from our OWN lips..gasp!!  ) anyhoo- kids know the words- and I'll bet they probably know the meanings LONG before we think they do! So- what is the BIGGER sin- using a swear word on occaision (is that word spelled right?) or is the bigger sin to lead ourselves and future generations blindly around in some pollyannic "sunshine and lollypops" daze- thinking that their world couldn't POSSIBLY be so vulgar- wel..guess what..LIFE GETS THAT WAY SOMETIMES.. gosh and darn..you try your "gosh and darn" attitude down in South Boston.. you wouldn't last very long.. LOL. sorry..going on a rant again. LOL. |
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MrsPeabody
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| GregKroeter wrote: |
| the HELL is "Tish" ?? -Let's face it..if we are trying to protect people from certain words- that's bullsh*t (pun intended) people or kids or whatever- they already KNOW the words- they heard them on the bus (or maybe- from our OWN lips..gasp!! ) anyhoo- kids know the words- and I'll bet they probably know the meanings LONG before we think they do! So- what is the BIGGER sin- using a swear word on occaision (is that word spelled right?) or is the bigger sin to lead ourselves and future generations blindly around in some pollyannic "sunshine and lollypops" daze- thinking that their world couldn't POSSIBLY be so vulgar- wel..guess what..LIFE GETS THAT WAY SOMETIMES.. |
Good point Greg. It made me think of how surprised I was the other day when I was listening to the radio around lunch time (some standard "alterna-rock" station) and I heard the word a*ssh*le, of course, without the stars...
I didn't think you could say that on the radio...
Of course I didn't think you could say b*tch or sh*t on TV, but apparently now you can, but only after 10pm... you know, cause that's when the kiddies are asleep (yeah right not even my grandma goes to bed at 10).
And like you say Greg, what kid doesn't know the words by age 12 and what kid doesn't know what pot is or a joint or whatever?
I don't think it would be a bad thing for kids to know what placenta is... they certainly know what sex is... I never did know why they but out the first verse of Lightening Crashes on the radio... just ruined the metaphor.
And I know this thread is about if it will or won't sell records, but is that all we're concern with? From all the conversation on this thread, it seems obvious to me that there's a lot more to this topic. Certainly a lot more at stake to a true artist.
And why have some things been edited and other things not.
Okay, LIVE can't say placenta, but Led Zeppelin can say, "squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg... baby when you squeeze my lemon gonna fall right outta bed." What's up with that? I don't particularly find either offensive.
And other artists can talk about how they're gonna shoot people and objectify women as meat-like sex objects and they'll get plenty of radio play and sell tons of records but according to djsmooth4lyfe:
| Quote: |
| Too much cussing ppl wont buy...believe me |
when you through in a lot of curses the albums won't fly off the shelf? B*llsh*t. I don't buy it.
Eminem curses the most out of all the artists I listen to and he's not hurting for record sales... maybe he doesn't sell a lot in the bible belt, but that doesn't mean ppl arent buying.
Whatever... nothing makes sense.[/i] |
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Reconsiderate
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: when will the redundancy end? |
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| MrsPeabody wrote: |
| Why do we censor the miracle of giving birth to original art just because not everyone finds it pleasant at the dinner table...? |
This is a fantastic example.
| Led Zeppelin wrote: |
| "squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg... baby when you squeeze my lemon gonna fall right outta bed." |
This I actually find these lyrics rather offensive... or gross, anyway. (It's certainly vulgar.) It wasn't until the tenth or so time I'd heard the song that I actually even noticed the words. "Hiding in plain sight." |
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artpaul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GregKroeter wrote: |
Great song.. and I CLEARLY understand what you are saying.. at least it was replaced by something that MADE SOME SORT OF SENSE! A fine example of what I mean would be in Tom Petty's "Last dance with Mary Jane" which yes..we all know that the song was about the guys smoking pot and they don't anymore- but the line "Let's roll another joint" -well..they couldn't have THAT on the radio!! So it was mumbled to the point of utter confusion-the result sounds like..ahem..let me attempt this..
"ROLL YO MUTHA BOINK" -only mumbled..so rooyomuwwthaboooiinnk..
(actually- I may use that line in a song somewhere- maybe if I gargle the lyrics )
Another fine example would be in the John Mellencamp song "Play guitar"- the original line was "cut out all that mach sh*t and learn how to play guitar" -the RADIO version became the swear word kinda REVERSED..so it was "Cut out all that macho tish and learn how to play guitar" - what the HELL is "Tish" ?? -Let's face it..if we are trying to protect people from certain words- that's bullsh*t (pun intended) people or kids or whatever- they already KNOW the words- they heard them on the bus (or maybe- from our OWN lips..gasp!! ) anyhoo- kids know the words- and I'll bet they probably know the meanings LONG before we think they do! So- what is the BIGGER sin- using a swear word on occaision (is that word spelled right?) or is the bigger sin to lead ourselves and future generations blindly around in some pollyannic "sunshine and lollypops" daze- thinking that their world couldn't POSSIBLY be so vulgar- wel..guess what..LIFE GETS THAT WAY SOMETIMES.. gosh and darn..you try your "gosh and darn" attitude down in South Boston.. you wouldn't last very long.. LOL. sorry..going on a rant again. LOL. |
I'm not sure every kid knows the words and I'm not sure we should just sing anything.
We are entertaining God and Angels as well as people that are inocent and those that are not.
I think Greg after your last post that maybe I should pray more about my song especially ones like The Backstreet Boys(I Want To Kill Them) because I might be influencing someone the wrong way. |
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GregK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Ok- first thing I noticed when I was driving home last night was that I had gotten the right words- with the wrong Tom Petty song- OOPS! The correct song is "get to the point"- or maybe it's just called "the point"- anyhow..want to clarify that.
Well, -being that I don't have any kids maybe I am not the best person to know what words a kid would or would not know. I know that I HEARD certain words or phrases ..gee..lemme think- I remember that i was using some of these words in the 5th grade- so I probably heard and understood them prior to that time. Now, the town grew up in might be a bit different from the town YOU are in- it certainly wasn't the Bible belt. so I understand that enviroment might play some part in this. However- now I live in the South/bible belt area- and it is completely shocking and somewaht amusing to me that I hear LOTS of bad language being thrown around BY THE VERY PEOPLE WHO ARE SCREAMING AT ME THAT I AM NOT A GOOD CHRISTIAN BECAUSE I HAVE A BEER NOW AND THEN OR BECAUSE I STILL SMOKE A CIGARETTE. -It seems that it is ok to call your fellow man a motherf (ahem-you know) but you cannot say any swear word (such as "damn") after you have first said the name "God".. (so I hear people saying "G.D" all the time-) Do you think you are fooling God?? Maybe i'm getting way off track here. |
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GregK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| thinking on this, you are right that we need to seriously think about how our music- even our actions may effect others- kids or adults. I personally think the idea of having a song that states you wish to kill the backstreet boys is a LAUGH RIOT- a similiar thing was in a Richard Cheese rendition of Britney's "Crazy" where he screamed that he wanted to F Britney- I laughed like crazy.. Now- good/bad.. we are getting into a HUGE gray area here because one man's trash... you know where I am going with this- I think maybe this is all subjective. We ALL don't want to have negative effect on others- especially kids. We ALL don't want to think that our parents, or our kids use swear words- maybe they DO- maybe they don't.. but we are all living breathing humans- and guess what..we can all be as sweet as pecan pie to each other- but when we accidentally hit our thumb with a hammer what words go through our mind- or come out of our mouth?? |
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MrsPeabody
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| GregKroeter wrote: |
thinking on this, you are right that we need to seriously think about how our music- even our actions may effect others- kids or adults.
We ALL don't want to have negative effect on others- especially kids. We ALL don't want to think that our parents, or our kids use swear words- maybe they DO- maybe they don't.. but we are all living breathing humans- and guess what..we can all be as sweet as pecan pie to each other |
Greg makes some good points here as Does ArtPaul in his post. But this all brings me back to a more fundamental question: Why are some words "bad words" and other's not?
I think it's way worse to call someone a racial slur then to tell them to F-off... Perhaps it's because i've become so accustomed to the F word, but also because F-off doesn't really mean anything, where as the N-word (which I hate and sounds like nails on chalk boards everytime I hear it even when it's said by black people to black people in music or on the street) actually means, "hey you, I think you're ignorant because you're black" at least when said by someone who isn't black... or by one black person to another when one thinks they're better than the other in some cases...
I think what it comes down to, and I think I'm repeating myself, is that when you use curses a lot you sound unintelligent -- like someone with nothing better to say because they have a small vocabulary. I think the same thing goes for slurs and other offensive language -- it communicates ignorance, lack or understand and blind stubborn refusal to be more educated.
We can affect each other in profound ways especially children. Teaching kids to curse is bad in the sense that they may become that uneducated ignorant person because they didn't learn vocabulary that more effectively communicates thier thoughts and feelings. This can be very frustrating just as trying to communicate in another language when you don't know many words is frustrating and it holds you back.
Still, if you want to say sh*t when you stub your toe, or f*ck when you lock your keys in your car, why not? You're expressing something unpleasant with words that are unpleasant. As far as impacting kids, ArtPaul, when you say you want to kill the Backstreet Boys, we all know you mean it figuratively -- I don't think you could kill anyone -- and there's something valuable to be learned from hyperbole and other literary devices. Now when singers come out with inflamatory lyrics, like those that flew back and forth between east coast and west coast rappers and lead to the deaths of 2-pac and biggie, then there's a real problem where kids who hear that will think that the way to solve problems is by killing the person who's bothering you.
Back to the question at hand: Did those records that contained the harsh lyrics about east and west coast rappers sell and make lots of money. You bet they did! And people still buy them today even after what happened. Did my grandma buy them? No. Did kids buy them? You bet! Do people still make records with songs that talk about killing your enemies and selling drugs for money and having sex with as many "fine b*tches" as possible? Yes. Do people, including kids, buy them? Yes they do.
Do the curses and inflamatory statements sell those records? In some ways yes because they speak to a generation/group of people for whom those words represent their reality. I think that's unfortunate. But if you produce a record with language like that which speaks to those people effectively -- it will sell. |
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GregK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I remember years ago when a couple kids had infortunately commited suicide after listening to Ozzy or Judas Priest records. Their was ALL this blame being thrown back into the faces of the artists- saying that their music encouraged kids to kill themselves..what a CROCK- bottom line folks- if you encourage your fan base to kill themselves- you have NO repeat sales..so of course it's all horsesh#t. Music is among MANY different things- a form of entertainment- if you can handle listening to a particular artist who uses or does not use swear words- the power is in the hands of each and every different listener to determine. TONS of great movies have raked in BIG bucks- and they have shown a nipple, a bit of some guy's butt (just think- how many times have you seen Dennis' Franz's butt on tv..and he ain't that great looking!) and lots of movies have a word or two now and then..some have LOTS of bad words- but still they sell millions of tickets to these movies- and then they sell dvds in time for Christmas- so back to the question will it hurt sales? No- probably not- if it is done correctly- think of it like movies- if all you have is a guy yelling swear words- with no story or action..you get no sales!
So- you have to give the people something interesting- good music, humour, action, something they will enjoy so when you DO throw out a swear word or suggest harm against a backstreet boy- it is all taken the right way.
NOW for the blatant self promotion- please listen to my song on my page..it's good clean fun! http://www.musicforte.com/member/gregkroeter Thanx!-greg |
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artpaul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| GregKroeter wrote: |
Ok- first thing I noticed when I was driving home last night was that I had gotten the right words- with the wrong Tom Petty song- OOPS! The correct song is "get to the point"- or maybe it's just called "the point"- anyhow..want to clarify that.
Well, -being that I don't have any kids maybe I am not the best person to know what words a kid would or would not know. I know that I HEARD certain words or phrases ..gee..lemme think- I remember that i was using some of these words in the 5th grade- so I probably heard and understood them prior to that time. Now, the town grew up in might be a bit different from the town YOU are in- it certainly wasn't the Bible belt. so I understand that enviroment might play some part in this. However- now I live in the South/bible belt area- and it is completely shocking and somewaht amusing to me that I hear LOTS of bad language being thrown around BY THE VERY PEOPLE WHO ARE SCREAMING AT ME THAT I AM NOT A GOOD CHRISTIAN BECAUSE I HAVE A BEER NOW AND THEN OR BECAUSE I STILL SMOKE A CIGARETTE. -It seems that it is ok to call your fellow man a motherf (ahem-you know) but you cannot say any swear word (such as "damn") after you have first said the name "God".. (so I hear people saying "G.D" all the time-) Do you think you are fooling God?? Maybe i'm getting way off track here. |
I think I am more concern about a 5 year old hearing a bad lyric but I do realize that christians can be hypocrics and I'm not going to say I'm perfect but I don't think there is any thing wrong with you drinking a beer as much as a 5 year old being told it's alright to to call his mom a B word.
I think woman being told they are slanderous names is one of the reasons I guess I don't like certain words and I don't think we should write songs treating the oposite sex that way. |
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artpaul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GregKroeter wrote: |
I remember years ago when a couple kids had infortunately commited suicide after listening to Ozzy or Judas Priest records. Their was ALL this blame being thrown back into the faces of the artists- saying that their music encouraged kids to kill themselves..what a CROCK- bottom line folks- if you encourage your fan base to kill themselves- you have NO repeat sales..so of course it's all horsesh#t. Music is among MANY different things- a form of entertainment- if you can handle listening to a particular artist who uses or does not use swear words- the power is in the hands of each and every different listener to determine. TONS of great movies have raked in BIG bucks- and they have shown a nipple, a bit of some guy's butt (just think- how many times have you seen Dennis' Franz's butt on tv..and he ain't that great looking!) and lots of movies have a word or two now and then..some have LOTS of bad words- but still they sell millions of tickets to these movies- and then they sell dvds in time for Christmas- so back to the question will it hurt sales? No- probably not- if it is done correctly- think of it like movies- if all you have is a guy yelling swear words- with no story or action..you get no sales!
So- you have to give the people something interesting- good music, humour, action, something they will enjoy so when you DO throw out a swear word or suggest harm against a backstreet boy- it is all taken the right way.
NOW for the blatant self promotion- please listen to my song on my page..it's good clean fun! http://www.musicforte.com/member/
gregkroeter Thanx!-greg |
I'm not sure the songs aren't influencentaul and I'm not sure that someone won't take it the wrong way but I do believe they have to have more than just the song.If their Parents don't love them and their friends treat them bad and then they hear Suicide is painless on the TV show mash it might sound like a good solution but it is because others don't love them first.So maybe we should write songs about hope more than songs about being stupid. |
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GregK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I've written PLENTy of songs about love- and "better feeling" subjects -of course, the one I had posted up above is not a good example of that..LOL. But I agree with you totally that the world needs more love songs or songs that make people feel good- I wrote so many of them all these years because I WANTED to hear more of them on the radio -but all I heard was pissed off songs by pissed off people.
When I was younger, my band used my parent's basement for practice- so my philosophy was "Hey- they are cool enough to let us jam here..don't aggrivate them!" So the philosophy was good music that everybody can listen to and enjoy- and it was a good selling philosophy to have because we were able to get booked anywhere by anybody (you might remember in another post I said we figured out ways to do all ages shows to keep kids off the street and give them something fun and positive to do.) I can't honestly say that swears are good or bad- and I agree with Mrs Peabody that at least it isn't a nasty word that puts people down- growing up my buddies had wonderful nicknames for each other like d*ckhead and assh8le or whatever- and these were NAMES SAID TO BUDDIES IN ALL CARING AND DEEPEST DEVOTION- and we never saw anything really wrong about it- but we would never think to go screaming those words in a crowded restaurant.. sorry- am rambling again. |
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GregK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh and about the kids that were committing suicide and it was blamed on heavy metal? You're right- there were many other things involved..like a whole lotta funky drugs, and a whole slew of things.. but tha is a different soapbox for a different day. what I'm saying is that I don't really think the music had anything to do with it- I listened to some of it when I was younger and I'm still breathing.. I'm a bit weird..but otherwise ok..LOL |
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MrsPeabody
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| GregKroeter wrote: |
| I remember years ago when a couple kids had infortunately commited suicide after listening to Ozzy or Judas Priest records. Their was ALL this blame being thrown back into the faces of the artists- saying that their music encouraged kids to kill themselves..what a CROCK- bottom line folks- if you encourage your fan base to kill themselves- you have NO repeat sales..so of course it's all horsesh#t. |
All I can say is, "Where were the parents at?" for the suicide thing and that's a very good point about the loss of repeat sales. I hadn't thought of that.
As far as seeing people's butts on TV and in movies, you're right on too! Imagine if there was some was to infuse nudity into music (without pictures or video I mean) -- project images of nudity into people's minds with music... now that would sell records. [by the way I'm being ridiculously sarcastic].
But seriously, there's so much crap (am I allowed to say that without bleeping it out?) out there on TV and in movies that is nothing but violence, sex and cursing. On Christmas day, my old roommate put on the movie "4 Brothers" for her 1 year old son and teenage cousins and nephews (and her mother, but her mother fell asleep...). I had never seen this movie so I watched as well. I was so utterly horrified by the end of the film that I sat crying in my room for hours. I didn't even want to come out for dinner.
This movie relied so heavily on death and violence and blood with barely --BARELY -- any semblance of a plot or story line. It was four adopted brothers trying to figure out why their foster mother was killed and in return their house gets shot to hell, two of them needlessly (and gorily) die and lots of other people get killed and shot and threatened and all of the women in the film are simply meat and eye candy... And trust me, I didn't just ruin the movie for you, if you have a brain you know how it ends 15 minutes into the whole thing.
The most astounding this was that no one else was even phased by all the voilence. They went on chatting and eating appetizers and didn't even talk about the movie other than to say, "I liked it" or "that girl was hot". I, on the other hand, was huddled in my room crying and feeling like I was going to vommit...
What I'm getting at is that we are so desensitized to cursing and violence and nudity and sex that so many people just don't even considerate it out of the ordinary anymore. They aren't shocked by it. And so if it's in their music, many people just don't care. It's everywhere!
Greg makes a good point that the music didn't make those kids committ suicide and ArtPaul makes an equally good point that media has a big effect on the younger generations because they are so bombarded with it at all times. So we must all be careful when making music that we make it clear that killing yourself is not the only answer and that killing others is not okay -- but if we do that by using a few cuss words, I still don't think that's a bad thing. After all, curses are common language and if you start trying to spout Shakespere at kids to get them to behave, they aren't going to listen to you. |
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Reconsiderate
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: Truly Raising |
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| MrsPeabody wrote: |
| Greg makes a good point that the music didn't make those kids committ suicide and ArtPaul makes an equally good point that media has a big effect on the younger generations because they are so bombarded with it at all times. So we must all be careful when making music that we make it clear that killing yourself is not the only answer and that killing others is not okay -- but if we do that by using a few cuss words, I still don't think that's a bad thing. After all, curses are common language and if you start trying to spout Shakespere at kids to get them to behave, they aren't going to listen to you. |
What no one has mentioned yet in this thread is that it's normal for teenagers to rebel. This means that it's appropriate for certain types of music to contain vulgarities & swears if for no other reason than to satisfy the demand held by those whose minds are dominantly locked into rebellion. Setting all other things aside, it's fitting to supply them with such materials. The real challenge is crafting work intended for teens in such a way that it appears vulgar and rebellious, but contains deep seated and subtle messages that maturity is the long-term goal. Persistance (sp?) and all of that. Creating work that extends over a period of years rather than a period of minutes. |
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MrsPeabody
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Truly Raising |
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| Reconsiderate wrote: |
| MrsPeabody wrote: |
| Greg makes a good point that the music didn't make those kids committ suicide and ArtPaul makes an equally good point that media has a big effect on the younger generations because they are so bombarded with it at all times. So we must all be careful when making music that we make it clear that killing yourself is not the only answer and that killing others is not okay -- but if we do that by using a few cuss words, I still don't think that's a bad thing. After all, curses are common language and if you start trying to spout Shakespere at kids to get them to behave, they aren't going to listen to you. |
What no one has mentioned yet in this thread is that it's normal for teenagers to rebel. This means that it's appropriate for certain types of music to contain vulgarities & swears if for no other reason than to satisfy the demand held by those whose minds are dominantly locked into rebellion. Setting all other things aside, it's fitting to supply them with such materials. The real challenge is crafting work intended for teens in such a way that it appears vulgar and rebellious, but contains deep seated and subtle messages that maturity is the long-term goal. Persistance (sp?) and all of that. Creating work that extends over a period of years rather than a period of minutes. |
I agree with Reconsiderate and one band that did this for me when I was in that stage of life was Tool. |
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